In the 2nd episode of "Sound-off with Sinkoff", Brian Sinkoff interviews Will Brown, the current St. Rose women's basketball coach. Will talks about his experience coaching women's college hoops and the current state of men's and women's college basketball.
They discuss topics such as the challenges of coaching women's basketball, the success of Caitlin Clark and the South Carolina women's team, UConn's dominance in the men's game, and the impact of the NIL (Name, Image, and Likeness) on college athletes.
The conversation covers various topics related to college basketball, including the unintended consequences of Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) policies, the impact of the transfer portal on mid-major schools, and the challenges of recruiting and coaching at a mid-major level.
The conversation also touches on the NCAA tournament experience and the recent departure of John Calipari from Kentucky to Arkansas. Overall, the conversation provides insights into the complexities and dynamics of college basketball.
In the 2nd episode of "Sound-off with Sinkoff", Brian Sinkoff interviews Will Brown, the current St. Rose women's basketball coach. Will talks about his experience coaching women's college hoops and the current state of men's and women's college basketball.
They discuss topics such as the challenges of coaching women's basketball, the success of Caitlin Clark and the South Carolina women's team, UConn's dominance in the men's game, and the impact of the NIL (Name, Image, and Likeness) on college athletes.
The conversation covers various topics related to college basketball, including the unintended consequences of Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) policies, the impact of the transfer portal on mid-major schools, and the challenges of recruiting and coaching at a mid-major level.
The conversation also touches on the NCAA tournament experience and the recent departure of John Calipari from Kentucky to Arkansas. Overall, the conversation provides insights into the complexities and dynamics of college basketball.
And hello and welcome everyone to Sound Off with Sink Off. So glad you are with us here today. Sound Off with Sink Off, of course sponsored by the Sink Off Realty Group right here in Del Mar, new York. Well, it's the second Sound Off with Sink Off podcast and it is my pleasure to bring in the current St Rose women's basketball coach and a good friend of mine. I've known him for almost 20 years.
Speaker 2:Mr Will Brown Will welcome to Sound Off. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you back in the sports game. I know you really never left, but it's nice to see you hosting this podcast and I appreciate you asking me to come on.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Will we thank you for joining me? I know we're going to get into women's college hoops, like the tournament. We'll talk about the men UConn winning the national championship. But first let's talk a little bit about you. You were named the St Rose women's coach in June of 23. You find out in December, in the middle of the beginning of your season. Your school is closing. You managed to have a 21-7 record. You're 17-5 in the conference. You get to the NCAA tournament.
Speaker 2:What was last year like for you professionally and even personally. I have to be honest with you. You know, late May of 23, when Laurie Ankle, the director of athletics at St Rose, approached me about the talk to your family, talk to some people and keep the lines of communication open. Then one day my wife just said to me why don't you do it? Why not? We really want to stay in the area. We're not looking to relocate at this point in time. Our older son was going to get ready to play his senior season in college over at Russell Sage. So you know, coaches always like to say why not us? My wife looked at me and said why not do it? It'll be fun? And then, you know, I took a little more time, you know, did my research and, you know, agreed to do it and, I have to be honest with you, early on I was like a deer in headlights trying to navigate through it, figure it out, you know, really get to understand these personalities and you know what it was going to be like to coach women's basketball.
Speaker 2:I had to try to add some recruits, hire an assistant coach and, you know, fast forward to the fall when classes started and we started working out. You know it was just really enjoyable. You know, I have to admit I had no idea that the school was in jeopardy of closing. That came as a surprise. There's no manual as far as how to handle these situations. I don't know anyone that went through a similar situation, so we had to kind of navigate it together. You know Lori, her administration team, you know my coaching staff, our players. We just really stuck together and said, hey, instead of hanging our heads, let's deal with the adversity, let's control the narrative, let's try to do something special, memorable, let's do something for the institution and for all the alumni that came through this program.
Speaker 1:You know prior Will your team first in the country in defensive points allowed. Defensive field goal percentage. Defensive three-point field goal percentage? You obviously no secret. You coached at Albany from 2002 to 2021. You go to five NCAA tournaments. How different was the women's game from the men's game? Something that you really cut your teeth in? And that was the men's game.
Speaker 2:The games are definitely different. I wasn't going into this naive thinking basketball is basketball. That would have been very foolish of me. The rules are different, so I had to learn as much as I could in a short period of time. It's more of a below-the-rim game but it also, as I found, it's, an enjoyable game. The players if they really know that you care about them and that you can develop that trust, they'll do anything for you. So we.
Speaker 2:Once we became more familiar with the personnel on our roster, it became how do we put this team in the best position to be successful? How can this group play where we can win games? Because I told them we are going to win. I didn't tell them how many games we were going to win this senior class. I was their third coach. They had never experienced winning. I told them we are going to win. Just please trust me and trust Carly Boland, my assistant, and embrace what we're asking you to do.
Speaker 2:And it's the old saying defense travels and it travels well Every time we step on the floor. If we defend and rebound, we'll have a chance to win. You're not going to make shots, you know, every night, but you can defend and rebound and really compete every night and that's kind of what we hung our hat on. We're going to defend, we're going to rebound, we're going to compete and we're going to be the most prepared team in the country and we felt that if the players bought in, that would be good enough on most nights. Our biggest challenge throughout the season is finding where our next basket was going to come from. There were nights where we struggled mightily on the offensive side of the ball. But again, anyone that sat behind our bench during the game heard me tell our team do what we do, don't waver from what we do. This is who we are and our kids really embraced it. I'll tell you what.
Speaker 2:Once I understood their personalities and you know I was told that on the woman's side, the student-athlete is a little more sensitive, a little more emotional Once I figured that piece out you know it was smooth sailing. I mean, this brew was an absolute pleasure to coach. I really think that they gave me more than I gave them. It helped me grow and develop. And then the rules piece. You know, under a minute to go, you call a timeout. You can advance the ball Every free throw. When you're in the bonus, it's automatic two shots. You know that's something I wasn't used to, so the last couple of years have been good for me, going from coaching a Division I men's game to the professional level to the women's game. It's really helped me grow and evolve as a coach and I think that's what it's all about. We always ask our players to get better, but what are we doing as coaches to get better?
Speaker 1:Will, of course, mentioned the pro game. He coached the Albany Patroons in the basketball league. Will you had? I mean, have you know have ball? Will travel, will pardon the pun. You have been successful everywhere you've been. You win the. You go to five NCAA tournaments at Albany. You go. You coach the Patroons. They're 29 and four. You're the coach of the year Northeast division champs, eastern regional champs, eastern conference champs. That, how was that for you, coaching the Patroons? How different was it? I know it was drastically different from from being at UAlbany, but how different was that experience and what did you learn about yourself during that time?
Speaker 2:I became a much more patient coach coaching the Patroons. One thing that I needed to understand, and understand quickly, is you're not coaching college kids anymore, you're coaching grown men and this is their livelihood. So, as much as they want to enjoy team success, they're motivated to have individual success because they're looking to get their next job, whether it's professionally overseas, whether it's the NBA G League. You know they all have goals and some of them had families. So this, this was a way for them to provide for their families.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you know I had, I had a great coaching staff with the Patroons. You know I had Brian Beery, the longtime head coach at the College of St Rose, on the men's side, don Bassett, who was one of George Carl's assistants during the CBA years with the Albany Patroons, mark Ribsick, julie McBride. So we had a tremendous staff. I was able to lean on Donnie Bassett quite a bit because of his experiences coaching at the professional level. Julie McBride had played basically 20 years. She had a cup of coffee in the WNBA and then played over in Europe for 18 or 19 years. So just relying on my coaching staff, understanding the types of players that I was coaching, what motivated them, but also trying to make sure that we won games.
Speaker 1:Will you know the college closes. You're still on campus. We see the pennant behind you Before we went on the air here you mentioned. You're still there trying to. You know, do the right thing by your players get them figuring out where they're going to go to college next year, since, obviously, st Rose isn't an option. But the question for you is what are you doing next year? I'm putting you on the spot, will.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. You know, we had always taken great pride in being part of this community. This is where we've raised our family. This is all my two sons know my wife's born and raised here, my in-laws are here, my parents are here. So we're kind of at a crossroads right now, trying to figure out are we really willing to relocate? At what cost will we relocate? At what cost will we relocate?
Speaker 2:You know, I had opportunities the last year or two to move to the Midwest and work in the Big East and it was going to be a situation where I was going to go by myself because I had no interest in becoming an assistant coach and this opportunity was special assistant to the head coach, where I was able to be able to work with a first-time head coach at a high level, kind of mentor, teach um and have, uh, and it took a role.
Speaker 2:But my wife knew that's really not what I wanted to do. So but she's, she's the ultimate basketball wife and I shouldn't even say basketball wife. You know she's a great wife and she's like I, basketball wife. I shouldn't even say basketball wife. You know she's a great wife and she's like. I know this isn't what you want to really do, but go do it for eight months and then come on back and we'll figure out the next step. So right now we're kind of in not in limbo but we're trying to figure out what's best for the family, and then that's really what it's going to come down to. I'm open. I'm open to the men's side or the woman's side you know, throw it out there.
Speaker 1:Will your resume is out there and on this show your resume is out there because will I know and I've known you for a long time, we obviously have a personal relationship. But to prove if you know nothing about you, will brown, I look at your resume and I go five NCAA tournaments at Albany. One year at the Patroons You're the GM. You've never been a pro coach. You lead them to a title and then you take over St Rose who basically, I don't say had the death penalty, but pretty much did when you got there and you lead them to the NCAA tournament. So Will you can coach the old lefty Drizelle I can coach. Remember the old lefty quote? Oh, lefty.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate that, brian, and you know, like anything in this world today, it's so political out there and you know you just look for a good opportunity that makes sense and you know, if you can get one of those jobs that's in the best interest of you and your family and it makes sense, then you know that's what we'll do. But there's a lot of people out there I think getting the next job is easy. There's a lot of coaches out there that want to be head coaches and any time a head coaching job opens up, you know there's hundreds of candidates. So you know's hundreds of candidates. So you know something I'll uh, you know it always works itself out.
Speaker 2:So we're excited about the next chapter and you know, I know you're trying to push me out of albany here, but uh, we'll see.
Speaker 1:No no, no, no. Come on, all right, let's, let's switch gears, let's talk. Uh, we'll talk. We'll start with the women's game, because you obviously just coach women's hoops, south Carolina. They're undefeated, they win the whole thing. They beat Iowa in the finals. Of course we saw Iowa here in Albany. I know you and your family were at the games. I'll be the first to tell you Will. I mean, this is just me and you know me. I've always told the truth, especially on the air. I watched more women's basketball, women's college basketball, in the last two weeks than I did in the previous 10 years. That is no joke and I loved it and I think it's a testament to what Caitlin Clark, south Carolina, dawn Staley, has done for women's hoops Fair statement With you.
Speaker 2:I think Caitlin Clark has elevated the women's game and made it cool to follow women's basketball. And one of the things that annoys me and I've been on the men's side forever, but one of the things that annoys me is on the women's side everyone is talking about. We have to elevate women's sports and we need more people paying attention to women's sports, and then we have a generational talent like Kaitlyn Clark. Come around and what does she do? She elevates women's basketball to an all-time level, and then there's female athletes out there basically taking shots at her.
Speaker 2:And I think that's something that really bothers me because there's, you know, every decade. You know there's great players that have elevated the game. It's just that it hasn't happened at this level. We've never seen it. And you got to give a lot of credit to social media for this as well and why. You know the game has been elevated. But Caitlin's supporting cast good players, but she's not playing with other McDonald's All-Americans, she's not playing with anyone else that'll be in the WNBA. She took she took a chance on Iowa and she elevated that program. So I think what she's done is even more special than what some of these other players that have done that are chopping her down. But it's great to see. But I also think we have to throw Dawn Staley in the mix. What she's done for the women's game, what she's done for the program at South Carolina Honestly, I mean they were undefeated throughout the regular season.
Speaker 2:A year ago they just stumbled in the Final Four to a great performance by Kaitlyn Clark and Iowa. Fast forward to this year. You know, undefeated. Again, they got the job done. You know Doss Daly is an all-time great and I think that again she's helped Kaitlyn Clark you know Clark elevate the game of women's basketball and it's not slowing down. Juju Watkins from USC is going to be an all-time great if she stays healthy. The two freshmen that come off the bench for South Carolina Tessa Johnson and Full Wiley they're both freshmen. They can start at any other program in the country. They went to South Carolina, played for Gauss Daily and win championships. They're start at any other program in the country. They went to South Carolina, played for Goss Daily and win championships. They're waiting their turn. You know it's just a great time to be a women's college basketball fan.
Speaker 1:You know my and I'll just be honest with you. I feel like this as you mentioned this, the Caitlin Clark and having her in Albany and all the hype that went around that, and she sets the scoring record from Maravich at LSU back in the day Do you feel like a year from now we're going to have the same excitement? And I know we're looking into a crystal ball we're going to have the same excitement about women's basketball? Or and I'm going to just be completely blunt with you Is this like figure skating in the Olympics? It was great now, and we'm going to just be completely blunt with you is this like figure skating in the Olympics? It was great now and we're going to forget about it for the next year or so. You know what I mean. I'm just interested to see how it pans out you know that's a great question.
Speaker 2:The second leading scorer in the country this year on the women's side, juju Watkins, freshman from USC. Nobody on the East Coast is going to see Juju Watkins play next year. You know the time difference. You know Kaitlyn Clark's moving to the WNBA. Will South Carolina be great again? Probably so. I hate to say this, but I think that it's going to be a slow process again. It's going to take a couple of steps back. People are going to wait and see. You know, I just think this Caitlin Clark phenomenon it's been building for four years. It took time. So I do think, unfortunately, it's probably going to take a step or two backwards. I hope it doesn't, but that's what I would guess at this point in time. I'm going to to take a step or two backwards. I hope it doesn't, but that's what I would guess at this point in time I'm going to give you a sink or swim.
Speaker 1:You remember how it works. You sink and you swim with me. You sink, you disagree, you swim, you agree. Um will, uh, caitlin clark, I'm going to say I have to. I can't ask you a question. I actually have to say it. Kaitlyn Clark success in the NBA. Not in the NBA, but the WNBA. The WNBA sorry, the WNBA, sorry.
Speaker 2:I'm going to swim with Kaitlyn Clark because I think she knows what she's walking into and she'll be more than prepared and unfortunately, I think the WNBA too many of those players are waiting for her to try to knock her down and you know, to try to say hey, you know this is where the real players are, but she's more than prepared because she doesn't need to score to impact the game.
Speaker 2:People don't realize. Not only is she the best three-point shooter and best scorer in college basketball, she's the best passer in college basketball. She makes her teammates better and so few scorers have the opportunity or the ability, I should say, to make their teammates better by passing the basketball.
Speaker 1:Will, I will throw another sink or swim at you. I'm going to say this Caitlin Clark was the biggest story in college hoops in the last 15 years. I'd say Jimmer the way he took over. And Caitlin Clark, are you swimming with that? Just in terms of captured the college basketball landscape the way no single player had.
Speaker 2:I'm going to swim with that without hesitation. And the reason I'm saying you put Caitlin in a category by herself because she's got young boys and young girls watching. She's got women and men interested. I played pickleball four or five mornings a week. I've got 10 or 12 grown men that I play with and for the last couple of weeks all they're talking about is Caitlin Clark. When's the last time that something like that has happened?
Speaker 1:A long time.
Speaker 2:I don't recall it. So you know when you can, you know when you have the eyes of men and women, boys and girls from all over the United States and really all over the world. You're special.
Speaker 1:All right, let's shift gears to the men's game. Gosh, there's so much I want to talk to you about men's college basketball. Not only the game with UConn winning their second straight, but just the landscape of it and the way the nil and the way the portal has changed things. Let's talk first about the college uh national championship uconn winning their second straight um dominant fashion 75, 60, um. Well, I, I've followed college. I mean you obviously. You obviously know way more about the sport than me, but I followed college basketball since like 79, 80. I don't think I've ever seen an offense do as many things as Hurley's offense does. Nobody stops moving. It's unbelievable, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the ball movement, the player movement, the way that they bring Klan away from the basket. He handles the ball quite a bit at the top of the tee for them, which opens up driving lanes. Yeah, they do a lot of good things. Very difficult to guard, a lot of misdirection. Danny Hurley right now is the coach in college basketball. Back-to-back national titles. The preparation, the way they played both sides of the ball, their game plan for Purdue was tremendous. They were willing to give up 50 to Edie but they were not going to allow Purdue to shoot the three and they were going to force those small guards of Purdue to make tough twos. So Edie had 35, and UConn won by nearly 20. And you can't key in on wire For UConn. You take one player away, four others are going to beat you. So I'm just so impressed with how they play both sides of the ball and how tough they are.
Speaker 1:You look at, they won back-to-back national championships for the first time since Florida. And I remember old school UAlbany. When you guys played Florida, you hung tough with them. I think that was 05-06 year, wasn't it the year they won the first national title 0-5-0-6,. You all played them tough. Talk about that real quick because that team was what? Four or five NBA players I mean, they were ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they had Joachim Noah Al Horford. They had the long 6-6-6-7 wing. I don't know why I can't remember his name, but we went down there and we were either up one or down one at the half. But the last play of the first half Jamar Wilson stole the ball and goes down in transition, hard foul, he goes into the basket, he comes up and he's limping and he tweaked his groin and played a little bit in the second half but he wasn't effective. He had gotten hurt.
Speaker 2:But to see how good they were up close and live, I mean big physical and, like you said, a bunch of those guys went on to play in the NBA. It's hard to win one Now think about winning two. You have to be good, you have to stay healthy, you have to have some luck on your side and you have to have really good coaching. So I've got a great appreciation for what Billy Donovan did with that team at Florida and what Danny Hurley just accomplished. What's going to be interesting at UConn, if he stays at UConn, is can they win a third at UConn? Is can they win a third? Because I'm not sure who's going to come back so they might have, you know, a major roster rebuild because of how many guys they're going to have that are out of eligibility or that are going to be selected in the NBA draft.
Speaker 1:Well, wait one second. I got to get a plug for my computer.
Speaker 2:I need one too.
Speaker 1:Keep rolling, just keep rolling, rolling, just keep rolling wait all right.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a great point. As far as florida, uh, and then yukon who's coming back? I think that one of the most amazing things about the yukon run was that hurley essentially had almost a brand new team. I mean, I think clin may have led the team last year in minutes, with like 10 minutes off the bench, but everybody else was either. A transfer was new. I mean, it was unbelievable that he whereas Florida we talked about them who you played back in the day it was majority of the same guys, the same core. Uconn was completely different and he still manages to get the deal done. That's what I found remarkable about this second championship.
Speaker 2:Well, nowadays I mean the world of college athletics has changed. You know those players that were at Florida. They were going to stay at Florida or go to the NBA. Now we're in the world of NIL and transfer portal and you know instant success. Nobody's waiting their turn, nobody's developing. You know it's like hey, if I'm not playing right now, I'm leaving. So it's a credit to you know what Danny Hurley and his staff have been able to do because it's difficult. Roster management is your number one priority right now and rosters are going to change for the most part every year. So if you can keep your core group together, you're going to be way ahead of the game.
Speaker 1:All right, let's talk about that, because you led the perfect transition segue, if you will, into my next point, and that is the NIL, the licensing agreement. Players quote, unquoteunquote now allowed to get paid through these deals. Clearly, the colleges with the deepest pockets have more money to spend, which are going to attract players from mid-majors, like the UAlbanys, like the Siennas, like the Mac schools. Do you like this? I mean be honest, do you like the way this is Not the way it's transpired, but the idea? Because, personally me, brian Sinkoff, I hate it, but let me hear your thoughts before it gets better.
Speaker 2:But I will say this I'm more of an old soul, an old school mentality. There's not much of an appreciation anymore for a scholarship, but I do think everyone else is making money off these student-athletes. I do think the student-athletes deserve an opportunity to make some money. The problem that I have is NIL was supposed to it wasn't supposed to be pay for play Right, and that's exactly what it is. It's basically like the colleges are now like minor league systems you know you're paying and then in the same locker room guys could be making different amounts of money.
Speaker 2:You know you might have a guy struggling averaging four points a game, making more money than someone that's averaging 12, 13 points a game. Or at the end of a season hey, coach, I made 100,000 this year, I'll come back for 250. Otherwise I'm going to jump in the portal. You know all of these players. Now they're allowed to sign with agents as long as they're registered with the NCAA. So now you have agents in players ears during the season, the handshake lines hey, you know, really love the way you play, you want to make real money, come play with us? Yeah, next year.
Speaker 2:You know, so I don't like it, you know, I know everyone says, well, coaches can leave whenever they want. Yeah, you know, I get it, I get it. I just don't know how you manage it, how you make it better. I do think it's going to get worse before it gets better. Less loyalty involved. I think now it's all about how much money I can make. It's become a social club for basketball players the transfer portal. You have kids at the low Division I level, averaging 10 points a game, jumping in the portal looking for a payday. If you're averaging 10 at the low Division I level, you probably belong at the low Division I level, probably belong at the low Division I level. And there's going to be players, when it's all said and done in late August, that are stuck with no place to go.
Speaker 1:Will, can you explain? I mean I know, but I want you to explain for me and the people out there watching and listening. On the podcast, again, you're listening to SoundOff with Syncoff, sponsored by the Syncoff Realty Group. We're with Will Brown, current St Rose women's coach. His resume's out there, people. So Kentucky, if you're listening, I mean I'm sure you deal well with Lexington, right? I like blue, we all like green too Will explain the NIL and sort of how this works. So a player can a college and again I'm paraphrasing here but a college has a certain dollar amount in the piggy bank to spend on that money and then they divvy it up to the players and the players just get that money. Do they have to do anything? Do they have to appear at a commercial? Or it's here's 100 grand. You're on our team.
Speaker 2:See, originally coaches weren't supposed to be brokering deals during the recruiting process. You know it was okay for the student athlete to go out and broker their own deals. You know and you know. So now it you know, and again I don't want to. I'm not claiming to know exactly what's happening, but I've watched this. You know closely and you know the NCAA. I'm sure they know that deals are being brokered. You know coaches are going to, you know, joe Smith Ford and talking to Joe Smith Ford and they're wheeling and dealing. It's going on.
Speaker 2:And you know the NIL was meant for players name, image and likeness, for players to be able to, you know, have a value where they can make some money. You know, based on you know, like you had mentioned, if a car dealership wants to endorse a player and the player thinks it's a good fit and the player wants to work with the car dealership, whether it's a certain amount of the player wants to work with the car dealership, whether it's a certain amount of social media posts or doing a commercial, you know everything's supposed to be registered, documented. How did it come about? You know you have to make sure that. You know the head coach didn't take care of this himself or nobody on the coaching staff, but it's become the wild wild west.
Speaker 1:I was just going to say that, literally just going to say that.
Speaker 2:Yep, it's a free-for-all out there. And all of these kids and I don't blame them, they want to cash in because they see other kids cashing in. And you know, I'd like to believe that athletic departments all throughout the country are having NIL seminars and they're meeting with each team and coaching staff to go over the do's and the don'ts laws as well. So, like the NCAA, I think has to be careful, because if the state of Florida says it's okay to do this, well, can the NCAA prevent them from doing that? So I think there's a lot that everyone involved didn't really understand or didn't expect, and now I think nobody knows what to do there's there's a lot of unintended consequences.
Speaker 1:I think is the good the good term.
Speaker 2:And some intended yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, let's, let's go back to your example, because I talked to a lot of college hoops, people to television people, just various people sort of in the know, and a couple of people said and kind of the way you said, brian, I think the nil is going to almost police itself in a way. It's gonna, like you said, it's probably gonna get worse than it's gonna get better. But I'm gonna give you like one of the things I pointed out to them and they're like that's a, that's a, that's probably one of the ways it's gonna police itself. So let's hear, hear me out on this coach. Um, you know, uh, sink off, sink off.
Speaker 1:Volvo, right, gives a player you know five hundred thousand dollars to x university's basketball department. They get, will brown's son to come there? Right, just hear me out. They get your son to come there, or whatever. I don't want to use your son. Just, they get someone to come there, johnny Jones to come there. Johnny gets 300 grand from the auto dealership. Johnny hates the school, johnny doesn't like it. Johnny gets more money somewhere else. That auto dealership just lost 300 grand for a guy that wasn't as good as advertised and then bolted after one year. Does the Sinkoff Volvo decide to give the college $300,000 again. I mean right.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a great point, because I've heard stories that disgruntled players would wait until they got their paychecks and then they'd quit until they got their paychecks and then they'd quit. And then what a lot of people haven't thought enough of is when does donor fatigue set in? Exactly Because originally, you're asking donors to donate to university, to your athletic department and to your football or basketball program. Okay, so those same people that you've been hitting up for money year after year after year, those are the same people. Now you have to add NIL to the ask list.
Speaker 2:And that happens when those players don't pan out or leave, or leave Right. So you know, and these powerful donors. The other thing too is they have so much money that they can influence whether people keep their jobs or lose their jobs on a college campus as well their jobs on a college campus as well. So I like to say it still is the great unknown and it'll be interesting to see how the NCAA handles it moving forward. But I'm not sure. If you saw Purdue coach Matt Painter talk about NIL the other day and he said a lot of people think the NIL was set up so the programs with the deepest pockets can buy the best players he goes, all NIL has done is allow the people that were cheating before. It's just made it legal for them.
Speaker 1:Yep, I mean because we know I'm not saying you, I know it happened. I absolutely, because we know I'm not saying you, I don't want to, I know it happened. I absolutely know it happened. For decades it's been happening.
Speaker 2:I can really appreciate a program like Purdue, because I don't think that their program is going to live and die with NIL. If you look at their roster, I hope that there's a McDonald's All-American on their roster roster I hope that there's a McDonald's All-American on their roster. And Matt Painter, I think, is an old school coach where he doesn't have the five stars or even the four stars. He gets good players and he develops them, whereas now it's all right. How many players can we buy, and some of these players you're only going to have for seven or eight months, and what return are you getting on that investment?
Speaker 1:Explain that okay, because back in the day and we're talking when I started following College Hoops and even up to what, five years ago, the transferring we have the transfer portal Transferring. If you transferred you had to sit out one year. I guess recently logan aaron halt like he went to maryland for grad school like turps baby, but those will grab transfers right, right, right so you had the graduate transfer exception.
Speaker 1:Now it's you can transfer. Right and correct me if I'm wrong. You can transfer, you don't have to sit out a year and are you allowed to transfer only once?
Speaker 2:forget the covet time, because I know that was the wild wild west, and this is why you know it's the wild wild west on steroids, because now you can transfer an unlimited amount of times and be eligible immediately. So there's no limit. Four schools in four years that's what you want to do. If you can keep getting bigger paychecks each step of the way, you can make a lot of money play at four different schools. I think the only thing that you're going to have to worry about moving forward is you will have to meet progress towards degree requirements and, as you know, when you transfer from institution to institution, usually all of your credits do not transfer with you. So that's one thing that you do have to be careful of. To be eligible at your next school, you have to meet progress towards degree requirements, not really difficult as a freshman or a sophomore, but once you transfer into your junior or senior year, that's where you're walking that fine line with progress towards degree.
Speaker 1:So you know, if you're at a mid-major and let's go back to you at Albany and you didn't really have to deal with this prior to you during your tenure obviously guys would leave and you had you know instances where, whatever, but by and large you didn't have someone looking for the better payday Boy. Doesn't this really hurt this NIL and transfer portal? Doesn't this really destroy mid-majors? I mean, look at all the transfers. Heck, my school got guys from mid-majors. We're talking Maryland.
Speaker 1:Look at all the transfers that are going to leave these mid-major schools to go to the bigger school and bigger payday.
Speaker 2:Most coaches I talk to at the low-major and-major Division I level aren't recruiting freshmen. They don't want a good freshman because they know they're going to be gone Now after a year. They have a good year, they're gone. But now some of them have changed their tune a little bit because kids are leaving regardless after one year. It doesn't matter. So their sell now is hey, we'll be like the minor league, we'll be like AAA or we'll be like the prep school. Come to us for a year, have a great year and we'll help you get to a higher level. So there's a method to the madness. I think coaches that are ignoring it are going to struggle. The coaches that are trying to be creative with their recruiting are going to be the coaches that thrive. And every year is a new year. Unfortunately, you could have eight or nine new players on your roster every single year. So I think the ones that are being creative and open to helping those young players move on are going to reap the benefits of it.
Speaker 1:All right. So you're a coach at a mid-major. How are you? I mean, I want you to peel back the curtain a little bit when you recruited. But before I get into that, how are you? Are you even if you're a mid-major now? Are you even looking at high school freshmen Like I wouldn't even know where to begin. Your job was so difficult before. I imagine it would be triply difficult at a mid-major now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I was at Albany, the only thing we ran into was grad transfers, because if you graduated and had a year to play, you can go anywhere you wanted and you were eligible right away. So I lost Logan Aaron Hall to Maryland can go anywhere you wanted and you were eligible right away. So I lost logan aaron hall to maryland. And the one that hurt us the most is I lost joe cremo to villanova, who were the defending national champions at the time, and in that same year I lost david nichols to florida state, who was coming up in a lead eight appearance. We had won, I believe, 23 that year. We would have been picked 1A or 1B the following year with Vermont and instead, because there was no transfer portal at that time, I can't replace those two guys Not guys that had experience in your program, but you can get two really talented guys that could help you stay in the top two or three in your league.
Speaker 2:You know now there's coaches that this is the way it's going with college recruiting right now Number one, priority transfer portal, number two, junior college. Number three, prep school and a distant fourth regular high school kids Wow. But now it's trickling down all the way to division three. So if you're a division two coach, there's so many kids that aren't being recruited at the high school and prep school level. You could steal a really good player, but again he's leaving after a year. Right, the division three kids, a lot of them paying to go to school, all right, if I have a good year, whether I'm a freshman or a sophomore, I'll transfer to Division II and I can get a scholarship. So it's going all the way down to Division III. So I think all levels of basketball are being impacted right now by the transfer portal.
Speaker 1:All right, let's talk a little bit about um, we'll switch gears, because that I find that stuff so fascinating. I love the inner workings of of the behind the scenes and peeling back the curtain before I get into calipari. Uh, let's talk a little bit about how was it for you. Let's go back to your, you albany days. How was it for you? How difficult. Because I've talked to so many college coaches and they said, brian, we're grinding, we're doing the game plans, we're doing the season and then we're recruiting and forget the portal, forget the NIL. How difficult is that job to recruit and always be ahead of the game and finding the next diamond in the rough. How hard was that to do, especially at a mid-major? Yeah, you know, diamond in the rough. How hard was that to do, especially at a mid-major.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I think sometimes you can get caught up in your season and be consumed with your season, and you need to be consumed with your season. You owe it to the student-athletes in your program. I always felt that the most important you know, the student athletes in our program are more important than any recruit that we potentially could get, because there's no guarantee we're going to get that recruit. So we had to really spend an awful lot of time with the players in our program. But recruiting is the lifeline of a program, as you know, and you have to make sure you find that balance.
Speaker 2:You know, during off days, you know every seventh day you have to have off once your season starts. Well, coaches can't have off on those days. You have to get out and you have to recruit. So if you have a head coach and three assistants, you have to be out. You have to be working the phones. You have to be sending the emails. You have to make the recruits feel important. You have to be working the phones. You have to be sending the emails. You have to make the recruits feel important. You have to be visible. You have to show them love, but you can't forget about the student athletes that are currently in your program and the season that you're, you know that you're in and you know for us we're always trying to win an America's Conference Championship. You know, get to the NCAA tournament. But it's a balancing act and you have to find that happy medium and, you know, find something that works for you as a program.
Speaker 1:All right, before we get to Cal, let's talk about the NCAA tournament and your experience in it, because we just watched UConn, we watched South Carolina on the women's side. You played in the women's side. You played in the tournament five years. You captured the Capital Region almost every time you were in the tournament, especially going back to 05-06, against that talented UConn team. What was the experience like for you, coach, as head coach on the biggest stage, getting the exposure and then, more importantly, getting an exposure for the Capital Region and for your school?
Speaker 2:It's an unbelievable experience and I would tell kids when we were recruiting them, you know, and the kids that were in our program, you know, one of the goals I had is to make sure that every player experienced the NCAA tournament. To me it's the biggest thing in sports for a month I mean, it's March Madness for four to five weeks. Everyone, whether you're a basketball fan or not, follows the NCAA tournament. Because I look at it this way, there might be somebody that has no interest in basketball, but they graduated from a certain school or wherever you work, there's an office pool. So you're in an office pool and you're following that.
Speaker 2:But for me, from a selfish standpoint as a head coach, my first NCAA tournament I had an opportunity to coach against Jim Calhoun Hall of Famer. One of the other appearances we made, I had a chance to match wits with Coach K, you know. And when you're in a one-bid league, you know I'll use the University at Albany, for instance what it means to that institution. As far as you know applications, you know the application process. Our admissions department would always tell me applications are through the roof. You know the advertising for those two hours when we're on CBS Sports and UAlbany is flashing. You know, four of the five games that we played were really tight games and the one game that wasn't the year we lost to Virginia that's probably the year that everyone picked us.
Speaker 2:It's the year that picked us as the upset special because the year before we led UConn for 35 minutes, you know, and I think that's where the pressure really got to us we made one of our first 18 shots against the pro ACC regular season champions, game over.
Speaker 1:I was at that game. It was in Columbus. Well, I'm sorry, glad to witness that. No, no, no, it was. It was look. It was amazing to watch and cover.
Speaker 2:I was at the time, I was still at channel 10, but people don't realize is we're coming from a one-bid league, so you can have a great regular season and if you stumble on the conference tournament you don't get an opportunity. Now, if a north carolina loses in the quarterfinals of the ACC tournament, all right, did our seed drop? Are we going from a 2 to a 3, a 3 to a 4, a 4 to a 5? If you are a favorite in the conference tournament in the America East Conference and you lose, your season's probably over, it's tough.
Speaker 1:It's tough. All right, let's talk about Coach Calipari Going. Toansas gets roughly eight million a year, a five-year deal. We're gonna have five million dollars for the nil fund per year. Um, candidly, why does somebody leave kentucky for arkansas? Had he worn out his welcome? Was he sick of the school? Was the alumni sick of him? What is your gut? I mean, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2:Probably all of the above. You know. I think in this situation, you know, john Calipari had a certain way to go about running his program and recruiting-wise it was all about getting the best high school players in the country. I don't think there's a better recruiter in college basketball than John Calipari, I agree. But since COVID they've struggled a little bit in regards to success in the NCAA tournament.
Speaker 2:Pre-covid, what John Calipari did was you know it's Hall of Fame type stuff. You know, and he is a Hall of Famer Now, post-covid, you know the game has gotten older and the key is to get old and stay old. So if you have 18-year-old freshmen who, long-term, are going to be tremendous pros, but you're playing 23 and 24-year-old mid-major players or high-major players, it's hard over six games, it's hard to win a national championship with kids. So I think you know some people say he didn't adapt to that. Okay, but that was his decision.
Speaker 2:You know who's going to question him. Look at his success. His track record is, you know, second to none. So I think what you mentioned earlier I think alumni maybe were getting upset the fan base why isn't he maximizing the transfer portal? If he can get the best high school players in the country. He should be able to get the best players out of the transfer portal. It's just a difference in philosophy. So I think he's like you know what. Maybe I'm not appreciated here as much as I once was, so I'm going to go build something special at a place like Arkansas where they'll probably pay me a similar amount. I'll have unbelievable resources and NIL money and I'm going to start fresh. Maybe he just needs a fresh start.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know you also have to look at all of the lotto picks. You know 35 lottery picks since he took over at Kentucky. I'll be completely blunt with you, and you know college kids better than I do, for sure. But you know a team with four or five lotto picks. I don't think they're stressing out over the second-round, but you know a team with four or five lotto picks. I don't think they're stressing out over the second round game against. You know, gonzaga, I think they're looking at the NBA draft in two months. I mean, just you know, are they devastated they lost? Yeah, they're upset, but are they looking at the payday? Absolutely, and that was almost every guy on his roster.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well said, you know for them. They're so young, you know they know they're going to be pros. Life goes on and they forget about that quickly. I think what a lot of people on the outside don't realize is the relationships that Calipari developed with those players. You know, I look at Devin Booker. He came off the bench for Kentucky as a freshman at 18 years old. How good would Devin Booker be at 20 at Kentucky? How good would Reed Shepard be at 20 at Kentucky? You know he was the freshman of the year. I think he's projected as a lottery pick right now 18-year-old kid. He's not going to be at Kentucky at 20. He's going to be in the NBA, you know.
Speaker 2:So would look at it this way too. Brian, if Calipari didn't take the McDonald's All-Americans but he took guys that were ranked between 150 and 300 and they stayed three years and they were 18 and 12, would the fan base be happy? They wouldn't be happy, but yet those kids stayed for three years. I think what they were probably looking for is we want Devin Booker, but we want also want the best player in a transfer portal. All right, we want Reed Shepard, but we want the best player in a transfer portal. Let's mix the young and old, but you know this is the last year of the COVID players, right, you know. But I think a lot of college coaches learn something through COVID Get old, stay old. So I don't think that's going to change. So it'll be interesting to see what he does at Arkansas, if he uses the transfer portal more or if he's just going to take that same philosophy of getting the best McDonald's All-Americans and see what happens.
Speaker 1:And you look at UConn, the men's national champion. What did they have? Seniors transfers, young guys, guys that cut their teeth on the bench a little bit. In terms of Klingin, who was the big man who played 10 minutes last year, we did not see that pre-COVID with the bigger schools you saw roster turnover almost every year. There were very few upperclassmen.
Speaker 2:Look at the starting lineup for Utah Newton transfer from East Carolina. Spencer transfer from Rutgers, best player at Rutgers last year. Then look at Castle Castle Donald's all American freshman caravan, red shirt, sophomore, all right. And then Klingon, sophomore. Both Caravan and Klingon were brought in as high school guys. So there's a nice mix, nice balance. There's six-man Diara transfer, I believe, from Virginia Tech.
Speaker 2:You know Samson Johnson, the backup center, you know was a high school kid. You know Samson Johnson, the backup center, you know was a high school kid. So I think what Curley's done is he's found the right mix of high school and also transfer portal and I saw him this morning and this was really impressive. They asked him about his recruiting and what's important to him and he said recruiting the parents. And then they're like can you elaborate on that? He goes, yeah, he goes. I don't want the parents that are their son's basketball fans. I want the parents that are going to hold their kid accountable, that are going to kick them in the rear end, that are going to get in their face because that's what I'm going to do, and I want the parents that are going to back me in the rear end that are going to get in their face, because that's what I'm going to do and I want the powers that are going to back me up when I do it.
Speaker 1:And we should just point out on the side note that UConn's, I think, the master of the offense, coach Murray, bill Murray's son, right, caddyshack baby. How cool is that? Like a lot of people you know, they thought this guy got the gig because his dad's bill murray. But the guy's like a serious and his first name is escaping me luke murray. Yeah, but he's a serious basketball brain, isn't he?
Speaker 2:he's probably gonna get a job.
Speaker 1:He's gonna get a job somewhere, I'm sure the hard.
Speaker 2:The hard thing with a guy like him is he's making so much money right now and he'll get her, he'll get a raise for this national championship and they have such a good thing going that he can be selective in what jobs he takes. And the crazy thing is we all know bill murray, we know caddyshack and ghostbusters and all that stuff. You know these young kids. They have no idea they have no clue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they have no clue who he is. None, but I just I find that like that kind of got lost a little bit over the last couple of weeks. Is you know this guy who I think is maybe the architect, maybe the brains, of some of that offense? It's just, you know such a Hollywood family, so funny. But Will we really appreciate you coming on? This was a great time and I wish you luck in your future endeavors. You're a good guy, you're a great coach and really appreciate you taking the time with me here.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate you having me on and I know you're crushing it with your real estate business and, more importantly, I love the fact that you're back in the sports game with the podcast and you know I'm probably going to be your least famous guest because I know how you roll, but hopefully you continue to do this and I can jump back on sometime in the future.
Speaker 1:We would love to have you and Will, you're my first guest, so you will always be remembered for that. But you were, on a serious note, you were always great with me when we had SoundOff, with SyncOff and even going back to the Channel 10 days. You were one of the funniest interviews and what I loved about you, will and I'll just tell you this, I don't want to embarrass you you understood how to play the game. You knew media was important. You never turned down an interview good, bad or ugly and that's what I respect about you and I really mean that.
Speaker 2:Well, you were one of the true professionals and I always appreciated the coverage and I know that you guys have a really difficult job in the media and we can't just lock the coverage when things are going well. We need to own it when we're struggling and things aren't going well, and you're always a pleasure to work with. So, you know, thank you very much and I'm looking forward to watching this podcast grow, because I know you're going to crush it.
Speaker 1:Thanks, buddy Will. Good luck to you. Say hi to the family and good luck in the future, like that, catty. Thank you all right, take care. That is uh will brown, of course. Uh, you, albany, he is uh the head coach of the great danes and thanks so much for watching sound off. With sink off, plenty of great guests coming along, as will just said, and uh, we appreciate it. Have a great day everybody.